Opinions on electronic music

[kriswitch]

Hi all
I have an assignment for college titled "Is electronic music seen as to fake or synthesized?" and i would like your opinions on this topic.
so anything you would like to say on this topic would be much appreciated no matter how big or small, thanks!

[Roddy]

Put it this way. Pick the odd ones out:

a) guitar
b) piano
c) Saxophone
d) turntable
e) trumpet
f) sampler

Electronic music is indeed 'fake'.
Turntables and samplers are NOT true musical instruments. Musical SOUNDS come out of them, but they are not real instruments. So then, by definition, any person who bases their entire musical output on pieces of equipment that aren't real instruments, aren't real musicians. And thus, their music isn't real. ie. FAKE.
The word 'synthesised' comes from the word 'synthetic', as in 'synthetic grass', which is grass that ISN'T REAL. In other words, grass that is FAKE. 'Synthesised' sounds = FAKE sounds.
I've even heard it from DJs themselves. A DJ I talked to recently called himself a (and I quote) 'bullshit musician' (unquote). They don't even consider THEMSELVES real.
Does this answer the question?

[Rexx Shredd]

I disagree with Roddy completely

In order to be a proficient programmer (and Im not talking about guys just dropping drum loops and a synth loop and calling it a song), one has to have a working knowledge of many many musical genres and understand how instruments mechanically work. For example: Using one-shot string samples to create realistic guitar parts is not only time-consuming but the programmer has to understand strum patterns and which strings get played first. Why not play a real guitar? Well, the programmer may not own one and/or finds a better challenge in programming it

As far as DJs, there are many DJs that can manipulate a turntable with the skill and finesse that a competent instrument player does

[Roddy]

Address the QUESTION, my friend. The question isn't about 'working knowledge' of musical instruments, how 'time consuming' it is or how much 'skill/challenge' is or isn't involved. Irrelevant to the question asked. The question is 'is electronic music ITSELF real or fake?'. Simple. You are actually answering the question yourself: you differentiate between REAL guitar and the programmed one. Real guitar = real. Programmed guitar = NOT real. And a DJ can manipulate a turntable with the same skill AS A COMPETENT INSTRUMENTAL player. Again, the differentiation. DJ vs actual instrumentalist. Two completely different things. REAL Instrumentalist = real, person MANIPULATING the programmed VERSION of the real sound = not real. Pretty simple stuff.

[Rexx Shredd]

Address the QUESTION, my friend. The question isn't about 'working knowledge' of musical instruments, how 'time consuming' it is or how much 'skill/challenge' is or isn't involved. Irrelevant to the question asked. The question is 'is electronic music ITSELF real or fake?'. Simple. You are actually answering the question yourself: you differentiate between REAL guitar and the programmed one. Real guitar = real. Programmed guitar = NOT real. And a DJ can manipulate a turntable with the same skill AS A COMPETENT INSTRUMENTAL player. Again, the differentiation. DJ vs actual instrumentalist. Two completely different things. REAL Instrumentalist = real, person MANIPULATING the programmed VERSION of the real sound = not real. Pretty simple stuff.

LOL - nope

The end result is music....there is no difference. One platform uses the knowledge and talent of earlier organic (for lack of better terms) instruments while the other embraces the newer technology of the cyber-domain. Done right, there is a certain protocol of required talent to manipulate that guitar the same way there is a required protocol of talent to manipulate the computer. Both are foreign objects in the hands of humans to make music.The end result is both can make music. Both also have a degree of 'talentless suck factor", do they not? The computer may be a little more forgiving in the outcome, but thats just saying one turd is prettier than the other turd :D

....and agreeing by saying that DJs can manipulate turntables with the same skill as a competent musician is only reinforcing the fact that the turntable, in the 21st Century, is NOW a musical instrument :D

I think thats pretty simple stuff...I also think that there are many purists out there that hate change. Theres not a blues guitar player out there that loves Albert King, or BB King and looks upon them as 'Real' blues, but purists in the 50s shunned the whole idea of blues being played with drums and bass on *egad!* ELECTRIC instruments.

Who knows? 75 years from now, the eBay of the future may be selling ancient computers by the boatloads to future cyber-musicians trying to capture that vintage electronic sound...........................

[Roddy]

Wow, that's probably the biggest load of bullshit spin I've ever read. You've taken about 400 words to say precisely jack shit.
I will relate to you another, completely seperate (from the 'bullshit musician') conversation I had with another DJ. I got talking music with him in my old workplace, and after 10-15 minutes chatting I asked 'are you a musician yourself?'
He said 'No, I'm a DJ.'
Pretty much says it all, doesn't it.
If the DJs themselves admit to not being real musicians, then you're pretty much pushing shit uphill trying to argue that they are. Could be time to give up...

[Rexx Shredd]

Look, bro, lets just agree to disagree..... Ive stated pretty substantial reasons why, but Im not about to debate opinions with anybody....its like debating whether or not chocolate ice-cream is better than vanilla.....

Your discussions with one or two isolated DJs (or even TEN or whatever) doesnt represent the whole/millions of other DJs and/or substantiate any facts....and there are MANY types of DJs - some, like Event DJs, of which are "No' thats not a musician...but there are other schools of DJing and turntable manipulation that are definitely "Yes", thats a musician.....

[Roddy]

Dude, mine was the first opinion on the thread. YOU came on the thread after me and directly disagreed with MY opinion, now you say you DON'T want to debate opinions? Piss poor form mate.
The 2 DJs I talked to were 'real' DJs, as opposed to the 'fake' ones you talk about (apparently you can see that particular differentiation), and it was just support for my main point, which is turntables et al have never been, aren't and never will be real musical instruments, no matter how much some folk try to say they are. They provide representations of already existing musical sounds, made by other people, for manipulation by DJs and producers, no matter how much 'skill' is apparently involved.

[Rexx Shredd]

Sorry, bro, Im not buying it - I think youre points are waaaaaay thin - but you are certtainly entitled to it...................... I think youre just being an old-school purist, and thats not a knock or a name-call: its just what it is. Theres gonna be a lot of people that will agree with you.....but theres also a ton of people that will agree with me



Just wish we had more ppl post on this forum to help us out :D ...this is one of the most lurker-filled forums Ive ever been on.....

[Roddy]

At least I've given some points, 'thin' as you call them. You've given nothing whatsoever. In fact you've actually been unwittingly arguing FOR my point.
And you're WAY off base too, with the 'old school purist' thing. I'm constantly buying new release albums, at least 3 or 4 a month, and probably 90% of what I listen to was released in the last 5-10 years. Probably 60% of what I listen to was released in the last year. I have been reviewing new release albums for the last 10 years (some of my work is on the blog here). My tastes and musical knowledge are absolutely up to date my friend. I'm also a musician in an original band, and I've been in a studio many times when electronic music is being 'created'. I know what I'm talking about dude. There is skill and effort involved, yes, but it's still someone using music that's already been created by someone else.
It's even all in the names: Synthesised (from synthetic, ie fake), Sampler (as in sampled from something else). And what does a turntable do? Plays music someone else has made.

[Rexx Shredd]

At least I've given some points, 'thin' as you call them. You've given nothing whatsoever. In fact you've actually been unwittingly arguing FOR my point.
And you're WAY off base too, with the 'old school purist' thing. I'm constantly buying new release albums, at least 3 or 4 a month, and probably 90% of what I listen to was released in the last 5-10 years. Probably 60% of what I listen to was released in the last year. I have been reviewing new release albums for the last 10 years (some of my work is on the blog here). My tastes and musical knowledge are absolutely up to date my friend. I'm also a musician in an original band, and I've been in a studio many times when electronic music is being 'created'. I know what I'm talking about dude. There is skill and effort involved, yes, but it's still someone using music that's already been created by someone else.
It's even all in the names: Synthesised (from synthetic, ie fake), Sampler (as in sampled from something else). And what does a turntable do? Plays music someone else has made.

What do you mean I havent given any points? The subject was about whether or not electronic music was fake or real and I posted barely scratching the surface of what it takes to be a good sequence programmer - which includes a working knowledge of MANY MANY instruments. You want credentials? You are talking to a veteran 'working' musician of over two decades (at one time with a label deal in the 90s), with many many logged hours of studio work as both a bass player (primary instrument) and as a sequence programmer, both union and non-union

Dont push me, bro, I can keep going and really make you look silly:D.......Im trying to let this thing between us go and let some other opinions in here to help the OP.............

[Roddy]

'Don't push me?'. YOU make ME look silly??? Don't make me laugh mate. You keep pushing the same worthless point over and over that I rebuffed several posts ago. It's all you've got, and it's nothing. I'll spell it out to you again, so hopefully you'll actually understand this time: THE POINT IS NOT HOW MUCH SKILL OR WHAT'S INVOLVED OR KNOWLEDGE OF ACTUAL INSTRUMENTS IS INVOLVED IN MAKING ELECTRONIC MUSIC. The point is, IS THE MUSIC ITSELF FAKE? Get it now??? Read the OP again if you still don't understand.
And stop being a pussy and try to get out of it. I'll say it again, since you seem so short on comprehension: YOU picked a fight with me mate. So either debate the point or stop giving ridiculous threats and bow out gracefully.

[Rexx Shredd]

Ive been very careful to leave out name-calling, so I appreciate the same respect

and I dont remember any rebuff: I only remember your opinion which really doesnt substantiate fact in any court of law....Some people will disagree with your opinion: get used to it.............

Noun 1. musical instrument - any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds

If Dream Theatre's keyboard player manipulates an analog synthesizer where he creates notes/timbres in an organized manner, then that music is as real as you or I and that synthesizer is a REAL musical instrument. Same applies if he uses a sampler. If the Blue Man Group decides to use pots and pans to create music in an unorthodox fashion and the end result is organized timbres of pitches created by command of those objects, music was created and the pots and pans are indeed REAL musical instruments. If a guy turns on a turntable and pre-recorded music comes out, that is NOT an instrument as he is not creating the music being produced by the record - but if that person manipulates the knobs, tuner, and uses the prerecorded music as timbre (controlled by needle position), and takes command of that turntable and creates a whole new intentional organized sound-set with that manipulation, at that point the turntable is a REAL musical instrument......

What part of any of that can you not wrap around your thick skull? A musical instrument can be anything that can produce controlled timbres - and that includes guitars, computers, glasses full of water, or turntables. Who the hell are you to draw a box around x-number of objects and deem them instruments and banish the others--- You are just some dude on the internet who does very good record reviews, you are not the Almighty Music Police............................

just because a set of dishpans are a less-common method to produce music than a saxophone, doesnt make them any less a musical instrument.......what makes any object an instrument is the manipulation and command of that object to produce notes/timbres in an organized manner or fashion ...Period!


Now -This is why I dont want to push this and this is what I mean by making you look silly:

Quote From You:

"I'm constantly buying new release albums, at least 3 or 4 a month, and probably 90% of what I listen to was released in the last 5-10 years. Probably 60% of what I listen to was released in the last year."


Depending on the genre and which act, did you know that a percentage of that 'Real Music' played by 'Real Instruments' you are buying and listening to IS either programmed, a programmed re-represntation, or semi-programmed in some fashion?....

[newtoncradle]

Personally* I think electronic music is perfectly acceptable. Though it doesn't warrant the skill to play an instrument (something we all admire our idols for)* it still requires and ear for tune* melody and interesting time signatures.

In my opinion* what constitutes song-writing is music that conveys the emotional sentiment of the lyrics* and sometimes (but only sometimes) conventional instruments don't have the same desired effect as artificial instruments in these songs.

Music is a state of mind* real musical instruments are a vehicle for relaying these emotions into something we perceive in this state of mind...

... Basically* who cares? As long as it feels good!

But ultimately... it's subjective!

[newtoncradle]

Oh wow* I just posted without reading first and didn't realise this debate had become so heated!

I do agree with both y'all here* but ultimately I have to say I lean more toward Rexx's argument... Sure* I don't consider DJ's to be musicians either* but for the most part* they're not making synthesised music... the original debate started over synthesised music* not DJ's* they're twice removed because (depending on what they spin) they're manipulating "fake music already.

@Rexx: you stated something about "75 years from now* people trying to get their hands on antique electronic software"... I completely agree with what you said here... Like when Dylan went electric... people said the same thing! How about Van Halen?even a keyboard is synthesised music* even though it's still played like a conventional instrument.

I personally don't believe there's a criteria for a musical instrument... whether it be a Triangle* Spoons or even a glass of water* if a human being can channel their emotions into a note or a beat* it's all fair game in my books.

And for the record... I find software instruments far more difficult to learn than any conventional instrument (bar the Harp* because that's just downright ridiculously hard!)

But as I said before... It's subjective... there are no right's or wrongs* just opinions!

[Rexx Shredd]

Hi Gaz

Yeah* this thread by kriswitch (who has one post and doesnt appear to have returned) seems designed to formulate a debate. The question wasn't "Is electronic music real or fake?" because thats a silly question - in reality* there is no such thing as fake music or real music. There is only 'music' and what is music ccan only be descerned by the listener. Asking that wouldve been like asking if a synthetic fuel power plant produces real or fake electricity.

What Kriswitch did ask was "Is electronic music seen as to fake or synthesized?" and that phrase 'seen as to' automatically sets up a debate.......and I fell right into it..................

[newtoncradle]

Hey Rexx* it's good to make your cyber-acquaintance.

If it really is a college project* the dude's gonna have some incredibly good subject material... it could probably be extended to a psychology class if he takes that too. It was a great conversation to read* I love argumentative debate... It show's a real passion for what people's beliefs are.